tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post7846593154072121273..comments2024-01-12T00:32:20.149-08:00Comments on The Overhead Wire: How I Learned to Love the B...GearyPantograph Trolleypolehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17833159138533550544noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-20437879223223132662009-05-31T15:53:18.985-07:002009-05-31T15:53:18.985-07:00As somebody who just got back from Toronto, a "str...As somebody who just got back from Toronto, a "streetcar/subway city", I will say that, being a resident of what is heralded as a Mecca for BRT, BRT is a worse idea. Sure, it appears cheaper, but doesn't appear better. They're just calling it "train like". They would prefer to think short term like they'll say, "We can't do it". And they do it too much.<br /><br />I can't even get why they're using trolleybuses on this! The 38 Geary doesn't have trolleybuses! I will actually say that a Geary subway is a good idea after all. The TA is apparently afraid of investment.<br /><br />F.Y.I., on my trip to Toronto, last night, I was on the 501 Queen streetcar from Neville Park Loop in the Beaches to Long Branch Loop in Etobicoke, on the border with Mississauga, with a length of 24 km long. The plan to modernize by upgrading from Humber Loop to Long Branch Loop to make it LRT should be done. This is fine, but could be made better. A subway on Queen Street would work longer term, but there should be LRT on Eglinton more so, with a subway on part of its route.<br /><br />I agree. Putting BRT on Geary would indefinitely delay any possible form of rail transit until when I'll be 72 years old. This is the same with other busway proposals, i.e. I-35W in Minneapolis (which I think should be LRT) or Independence Blvd. in Charlotte. I'll only be 22 years old - 50 years less than what I said earlier - on Canada Day, July 1st! And they say BRT is supposedly a "stepping stone" to light rail.<br /><br />Arcady: The "very well developed trolleybus infrastructure" you're talking about is extensive in Vancouver, but it's bad in Edmonton that they're ending trolleybuses. They say that it's a choice between those and LRT extensions. To me, this is a false choice. Besides, in Edmonton, they're opting for LRT extensions to the north and the west instead of busways.Matt Fishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-2631051665755663552009-05-31T06:44:31.070-07:002009-05-31T06:44:31.070-07:00Steve: it's highly unlikely that the reserved lane...Steve: it's highly unlikely that the reserved lanes will be wide enough for two regular buses to pass each other, given the constraints of the corridor. And the very similar Van Ness corridor will definitely be trolleybus (it would look bad if they were to take down the existing wires). So it continues to be a mystery, or maybe a potential hook for questioning the competence and local knowledge of the consultants.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-54573296135010602102009-05-30T11:45:34.393-07:002009-05-30T11:45:34.393-07:00I wonder if they didn't consider trolley buses bec...I wonder if they didn't consider trolley buses because trolley buses have a hard time passing each other and they're assuming the BRT will need to deal with bus bunching (which it seems plausible that it will, given the expected ridership).<br /><br />Of course, that makes the argument for grade-separated rail even stronger...Stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13472103339319567043noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-41032146529088199552009-05-30T10:02:08.618-07:002009-05-30T10:02:08.618-07:00Good job on the post.Good job on the post.Andrew Samuelsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07465439317493194735noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-68720617805682009942009-05-30T01:13:31.488-07:002009-05-30T01:13:31.488-07:00great post, i made it all the way through!
i woul...great post, i made it all the way through!<br /><br />i would love a subway from berkeley all the way to geary... i guess it won't happen until much after i graduate though. it would only be that fast in china.ianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16497311093224486519noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-5510637018847490502009-05-29T22:13:16.835-07:002009-05-29T22:13:16.835-07:00Oh, yeah.
Why not another billion or so for a gra...Oh, yeah.<br /><br />Why not another billion or so for a grade separated line along the MacArthur corridor to East Oakand? This would be far more cost effective than that silly $500 million Airport people mover...Michael D. Settyhttp://www.publictransit.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-17260544939727316792009-05-29T22:11:45.686-07:002009-05-29T22:11:45.686-07:00If Perata is elected Mayor of Oakland, do you supp...If Perata is elected Mayor of Oakland, do you suppose he could get Bates to go along and propose a study of the idea for a Geary to UC Berkeley line like you show, plus the 3rd & 4th track for regional rail and HSR? Your idea is in the Regional Rail Plan adopted by MTC in 2007, but there is no one currently pushing implementation of that blueprint, at least not anyone with any influence.Michael D. Settyhttp://www.publictransit.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-15510196899290744262009-05-29T20:54:23.592-07:002009-05-29T20:54:23.592-07:00PT: I'd venture a guess that the study was done by...PT: I'd venture a guess that the study was done by consultants who are not from SF and have never ridden on or seen a Muni trolleybus. But then again, the Van Ness study, or at least the simulated pictures, show overhead wires and trolleybuses. It's really a mystery, especially if they're supposed to be making Geary "rail-ready", as overhead support poles, feeder cables, and substations would also be useful for a rail line.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-37165945243814223182009-05-29T19:57:31.837-07:002009-05-29T19:57:31.837-07:00Yeah Arcady, I don't get why they can't do ETBs ei...Yeah Arcady, I don't get why they can't do ETBs either. Its very strange to me.Pantograph Trolleypolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17833159138533550544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-28574515096045765232009-05-29T19:57:06.102-07:002009-05-29T19:57:06.102-07:00The point isn't that bus or rail are promotional o...The point isn't that bus or rail are promotional of different job types. The issue is that together they serve a greater diversity of income levels than would happen if you didn't have more rapid transit. It means that you have access to transit to get to a larger number of job types. This is not to say that some of your points aren't correct, but what it does say is that rapid transit allows people greater mobility to get to different kinds of jobs. <br /><br />If you make a bus connection to a rail connection, it's likely that your 30 minute commute shed will greatly increase, thus increasing your access to other types of jobs. If you have a bus only system, it makes it harder to reach that diversity in such a timeframe. That's what I get out of that index.Pantograph Trolleypolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17833159138533550544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-56838447571468513082009-05-29T19:40:48.348-07:002009-05-29T19:40:48.348-07:00Alon, is that really the argument they're making? ...Alon, is that really the argument they're making? Or are they just saying that of the entire population, buses only attract the low-income segment which has no choice, whereas rail attracts both? Because from my experience with LA, this is exactly the case: during peak hours, rail has a very diverse ridership with a significant upper class component, whereas off peak when roads are less congested, rail riders (both Metro Rail and Metrolink) tend to be predominantly minority, while bus riders are predominantly minority all the time.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-72405274089422659202009-05-29T18:40:04.118-07:002009-05-29T18:40:04.118-07:00The argument about entropy and income diversity se...The argument about entropy and income diversity seems to get it backward. There's no mechanism proposed for why buses promote low-income jobs and rail promotes more diversity. There are many mechanisms explaining the opposite effect, with low incomes encouraging bus travel and high income encouraging rail. First, areas with higher incomes are likelier to get investment in rail infrastructure. Second, placing rail on an inner city corridor leads to gentrification, increasing average incomes. And third, middle- and high-income workers are also less likely to be willing to take the bus than they are to take rail. The first two factors ensure that high-income and mixed-income spaces will be more accessible by rail, while the third ensures that low-income spaces will be accessed mainly by bus.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-69732092786065243802009-05-29T10:18:00.277-07:002009-05-29T10:18:00.277-07:00Well...I read the whole thing and understand your ...Well...I read the whole thing and understand your frustrations. Your thoughts are well articulated. I hope you have lots of readers for this post, including some who may be able to influence a change in thinking.TexasOskinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6609536178570975752.post-23177128020558583212009-05-29T09:29:58.146-07:002009-05-29T09:29:58.146-07:00One thing that continues to be a mystery is why th...One thing that continues to be a mystery is why they completely ignore even the possibility of electrification. SF already has a very well developed trolleybus infrastructure, and there's even a trolleybus depot right ON the line, but the official TA report doesn't even mention it. And it really seems like they think the important part of BRT is having appropriately "stylized" buses, sorry, BRTVs, rather than anything like speed, passenger convenience and comfort, operating efficiency, or other actually practical concerns. And their cost estimates for rail seem absurdly high, compared to, say, LA's Gold Line.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.com